Transcription
00:00:00
You. Hello, and welcome to the Champagne Lounge. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Champagne Lounge podcast. I'm excited by this one because our guest on today's show, her and I hang out on Necker Island in 2022, and we've been friends ever since, and she is an absolute ball of energy and got such a fascinating business that I want to deep dive into. Welcome to the show.
00:00:28
Jen Bicknell. Thank you, Bec. It is wonderful to be here. I think back to you and I just sitting, drinking, cocktails, overlooking the Caribbean ocean was pretty fabulous that time, wasn't it? Oh, it was.
00:00:45
It was just the most magical experience that you really can't put into words to explain it to other people, but it was just was. And, you know, being surrounded by amazing women and the energy and the love, it was just one of those once in a lifetime experience completely. And we loved being putting ourselves in those environments around supportive, amazing, inspiring women, which is what we're all about here in the Champagne Lounge. But that's not what I want to talk to you about today. I want to deep dive into your business because it is so important, the work that you're doing and obviously the conversation that we're about to have for our listeners to understand a little bit more about employment law and all fun things.
00:01:29
Team. So, Jen, tell us a little bit about you and your business now and what really actually got you into what you're doing now. Because I know it's a fabulous story, and I always love listening to it. As soon as people hear I'm a lawyer, they go, oh, snooze, or they get angry. But I call myself an unlawery lawyer because I like to think that I do things a little bit differently.
00:01:52
So I spent 23 years in big international law firms, and I was a partner, and I was absolutely happy, loved my life. And then one day, I went to a Seth Gogan concert. Now, for those who don't know Seth, shame on you. But Seth is a marketing genius, and he spoke at a business chicks event in Sydney. They brought him out to Australia, and it was one of those corny as it sounds moments where the light bulbs just went off for me.
00:02:21
Seth was saying, pick yourself. And even though I wasn't unhappy, I realized I'd been holding myself back from doing certain things. So I raced back to the office and I told the BD manager, oh, my God, oh, my God. This is what I heard. And she just looked at me and she's like, oh, my gosh, you don't belong here anymore, do you?
00:02:39
And I was, no, I do. And then over the next six weeks, I literally read, watched, ate everything Seth had produced. And within six weeks, I realized that I needed to start my own business. That's got to be pretty darn scary, right? Stepping out into your own going.
00:02:57
I've got a feeling of doing this differently. How did you navigate that, particularly in a space of law where you are so regulated in the way that you can operate and what you can and can't do within a space? How did you go about that transition into going from traditional into something else that you wanted to do in the way you wanted to do it?
00:03:20
Well, I was very fortunate because when I had this light bulb moment, I also didn't have any money I hadn't saved up to start a business. And apparently it costs money to start a business, but I've never sort of let things like that get in the way of doing things. And the reason why I wanted to start my own business was because I was dealing all the time with disputes. So I was getting all these employment law cases on my desk from fabulous people who were just getting stuck in unfair dismissal claims or discrimination claims and it was keeping them awake at night. And I often refer to employment law as like being family law, but it's in the workplace, so it's really emotional.
00:03:59
It's not about selling a building or construction law is about things. It's about people. And I was really sort of starting to get drained by having to see all these people lying awake at night worrying about these disputes that were really weighing them down. And so I looked into it and I researched all my cases and I thought, right, what is the common theme here? And I realized that most of the disputes that I was solving, once they'd gone to the Fair Work Commission or to court, all of them could have been prevented if someone had had a difficult conversation early in the piece when the issue was really tiny and before it festered and became big.
00:04:41
And so I decided I am going to start a business where I teach people how to have difficult conversations. So it was about dispute prevention. Now, fortunately, when I put this to my firm, they were very understanding because they knew I had this passion to do this sort of thing. So we actually agreed that I would take some of the firm's existing work with me and still do it from my own business and have people within the business, their business, doing the work as well. And the client that we arranged that through was supportive of that because they didn't want to lose me.
00:05:22
So basically I had a very big existing client that I was able to use as my sort of staple client. Your cash flow. Just starting a dream business cash flow. Particularly since I had no cash. So that was very fortunate.
00:05:38
And then look, it's like most other things, it's all word of mouth. And so much of the work that I've gotten the whole time has been word of mouth. And people, once they sort of find out that you do things a little bit differently and you're a human. You're not a boring, this is what the law says kind of person. You're about solutions and understanding that people are humans.
00:06:02
The work just flowed very quickly, so I was fortunate. And when you talk about difficult conversations, what are some of the regular difficult conversations that you're encouraging clients business owners to have? And what are the sort of red flags to go, time for a difficult conversation?
00:06:21
There are so many feedback is a very important one. Like people are reluctant to give feedback because they're scared that the person will just up and leave. And in this environment, at the moment, in this economy, employees, I guess, have the power. And so companies are really concerned about losing good people. I cannot tell you how many people just have a poor performer on their books, but they let it go, or they just turn a blind eye or they put up with it till they get to the point where they've passed the probation period.
00:06:55
And it's much harder to let someone go once they've been there for a period of time. I can't tell you how many times I've had cases where the employee has said to their employer when they let them go, but why didn't you say something before? I didn't know I was doing anything wrong. And it's because so many employers think that their employees are psychics. And so what I try and do is help them to have the conversations about performance as and when they arise.
00:07:27
Because when you raise something when it's small, you can add humor to it or at least be a little bit light hearted about it. It's not penal. Whereas once you get to the point where things are really bad, you've got to then make it more formal. So I just try and coach people how to have those conversations. And I guess the other big one is redundancies.
00:07:49
Like, nobody likes letting people go. And so particularly, like, I advise a lot of startups and so when they start up, they pivot and change the way they go. And they need different people in year two or three than they did from the people who were there when they started. And so having the conversations with those founding members of the team to say, oops, you don't belong here anymore, it's really hard. And I can't tell you how many founders I find are brilliant at what they do, but do you think they can have a conversation with an employee about having so what I find is that most people know they have to have a conversation, but they can't find the words.
00:08:32
And I'm going to age myself here, but back in the day there was this show called Happy Days. I don't know if you ever I have seen it. Yeah, okay, well, the Fonz could never say he was wrong. He'd go, I am. And I liken people not having difficult conversations to being like the Fonz, right?
00:08:50
They know they need to say something, but they can't get the words out. And so a lot of what I do is I do scripts and they're not boilerplate. I actually speak to the person involved and I make sure that what I whip up for them sounds like them, and they can then have the conversation with the employee in a natural, comfortable way and deliver the bad news or the whatever news in the best way possible. And what I find is that when people have a script or at least understand what they've got to do, they're more confident and it goes better and they don't end up having a claim against them.
00:09:36
I sort of refer to it as a bit like a volcano or a pressure cooker. Like if people have left something for a long time, simmering on the and they have verbal diarrhea, right, and they go, these are all the things you've been doing wrong for the last six months and this is why I hate you. And that is the worst way to convey news about someone's performance. But if it's scripted and I actually say some people are so nervous about having the conversation, they say, Can I just read your script? And I go, yeah, you can.
00:10:05
And I put that in the script so it actually says, hey, Beck, I've got to have a discussion with you about something that's important. And I really put a lot of thought into this, so I've made some notes. So forgive me, but I'm going to refer to them while I speak to you. And they literally then go off verbatim on the screen and it means they don't go off the reservation, which is great, but it also means they get the news across in the sort of formulaic way that I've created it. Because, for example, I believe that if there's a problem, you should be able to sum it up in three sentences.
00:10:41
If you can't explain what's wrong and why it's wrong in three sentences, then you don't understand the problem. Yeah. In doing that too, I know in any difficult conversation, you've always got the thing in the back of your head going, should I say it this way? Should I say it that way? What if I say it this way?
00:10:55
And then I know from my video background, the more people try and prepare in their head and prepare their notes without actually being able to read them, the harder it is for them to remember what to say out loud. Right? So having those scripts in place, I guess, stops them potentially doing something that would go against them in a conversation in an employment law scenario. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, absolutely.
00:11:21
But what I also do is I do a list of things the person might say so I've prepared in advance. They might say, this and your answer will be this. They might say this. This is what you say. So they've got prepared responses and I get them to give me input.
00:11:38
Okay, is this person likely to yell? Is this person likely to become really emotional and cry and we prepare for all those outcomes. So they've got responses or they've planned for how to handle it if any of those situations arise. And it just means that they feel prepared going into the conversation and they can bring because really all people want is respect and integrity. And so if you go into the conversation in a kind way and you treat the person with respect, most of those discussions go really well.
00:12:13
It's almost a darn it, why did I wait so long to have this awkward conversation? Because it's not awkward at all now. I've done it in the right way. Yeah. The Champagne Lounge isn't just a podcast.
00:12:25
It's an instant digital community for ambitious businesswomen and entrepreneurs like you wanting more connection, community and celebration. So wherever you are in the world, whatever stage of business you're at, if you're looking for that ultimate female cheer squad of like minded women, head over to thechampainlounge.com to come and join us.
00:12:47
Well, during the plague, a lot of my clients had to let people go just because of the change in economic conditions. And I helped clients sack a lot of people during COVID and not a single one of my clients got sued. Not one. Because they handled the conversations with respect and kindness. And so that's why I say to them, look, it sucks that you got to pay me to help you do it, but it's going to suck more if you end up getting exactly.
00:13:16
So it's a cost benefit analysis. Yeah. And I guess your work can help. And the knowledge that you share because you also have a weekly, weekly or monthly newsletter. It hits my inbox and I can't remember how regular it is that hits your inbox and has little bits of information and you also make it a little bit lighthearted with your sort of Ask Jen column for want of a better explanation to it.
00:13:38
I love that you're sharing that information for business owners of just one team member all the way up to hundreds of team members. Right. So how did you decide that that was the style of newsletter you were going to put out to the world to get people interested in understanding employment law? Because I know there's a lot of people out there with teams that go, okay, I've got a team and they're just doing their jobs and as you say, they're coasting along until a problem hits you're changing the conversation and the way people are digesting this information to make them aware of it. What was it that you went going to do it in my newsletter, I'm going to do it this way.
00:14:15
Talk us through it. Well, there's saturation of newsletters and we all just press delete a lot of the time because it hits your inbox and you go, nut, I can't be bothered reading that. And I thought, well, if I'm going to do a newsletter, I want people to read it. Well, the way you described your newsletter, because you and I sat at dinner at my house a few weeks ago as part of my dinner parties and you described the newsletter and I think everyone around the table went, oh, that's something I actually want to read. I love that idea.
00:14:43
So I like that. Yeah. So I basically decided that it had to reflect me. So my personality, which is I'm an unlawery lawyer, I'm not serious and stiff and boring. So every fortnight it comes out, I do a section called Jen's Lens, which is just me making an observation about themes I'm seeing coming across my desk as an employment lawyer.
00:15:06
So I'm just sharing what's going on in my practice. Obviously, confidentially, I don't give any details of clients, but just themes I'm seeing or trends. Then we do a section called Briefly, which is just four little articles about fun things like, oh, how ironic, zoom has now made everybody go back to the office, you know what I mean? Or cases that are funny. And then there'll be a couple of serious things like, okay, this legislation is changing on this date and you need to know about it.
00:15:37
Or here's a checklist so that you make sure that you don't do this wrong and I give them access to this checklist. So that's the sort of legally stuff. I then do a Dear Jen, which is completely made up, completely tongue in cheek, but it actually has a legal element to it most of the time. And then I do an after work section, which is me recommending the best TV shows to watch on TV and. Streaming and what is the best TV.
00:16:05
And then there's a meme, oh gosh, well, go to my website because all the previous editions are there. And then I do a meme, which I either make up myself or if I'm having a slow creative day, I borrow one from someone else. But it's funny, most people say to me that the first thing they do is they go to the Dear Gen column, then they go to the afterwork section, make a note of what TV shows they need to write, then they go back up to the top and they read through the case stuff. But I try and make it really bite sized chunks, like no one has time to read case notes. I don't.
00:16:38
It's boring too, so I really make it digestible and I've got a really high open rate and a lot of people open it in the first hour of getting it. And so that to me means it's resonating. And when I was sitting at NECA in the pool with one of our friends, Georgie, she said to me, I only read three newsletters and one of them was Tim Ferriss and one of them was mine. And I was like, okay, I'm happy to be in the know company as Tim Ferriss. You know what, and you've just summed up how I read your newsletter because I do scroll down the bottom, have a little look and then back to the top.
00:17:12
And I've only just jumped on it because I cleared all my newsletters out so I can vouch for the fact that it is clickable, it's worthy to open and spend ten minutes having a look at. So in doing it creatively, though, Jen, you are definitely doing it in a way that is an unlawery lawyer type approach to it. Where did that creative streak do you think come from for you in your career and life journey of following a career in law? Well, I think I've always sort of loved being a bit of a performer without the talent, so my late mother took plenty. Well, I was raised on musicals, right?
00:17:55
And so my late mother used to take me to all the shows, but I did drama. But I can't really well, I'm not tone deaf, but I can't really sing and we all think we can dance, particularly after a few cocktails, but again, I'm not a dancer. One of the things I was doing at my old law firm was I would put on plays for the clients. So instead of them coming and having a lawyer standard elect and going, we are now going to talk about blah, blah, blah, like, shoot me now, right? I couldn't do that.
00:18:26
So what I would do is I'd write a script about the topic, social media and how it can destroy your career. And then I'd make the poor young lawyers be the actors and they would act out the things that can go wrong if you misuse social media and how it affects your career. And the clients loved it because it was an entertaining way to learn. And I saw the response that I got from them. They liked the fact that they weren't being talked at, they liked the fact that they were getting to laugh.
00:18:59
And I sort of think if you're laughing, you're learning. And so that was, I guess, what really spurred me on to want to be creative. And I knew that I wasn't going to be able to do that as much as I wanted to in the confines of the business that I was working in. I knew that if I wanted to be completely creative without anybody telling me what to do, I was going to have to do it under my own shingle. So I think that that was also a reason why I wanted to feel unfitted so no one could put baby in the corner.
00:19:33
Yeah, I love that. And you know what, it's so typical of all entrepreneurs and business owners just going, I want to do this a little bit differently and do it my way. And really just taking what an inkling has been in a past life and a past career and just flourishing it into something new, which I think is always so inspirational to watch happen in real time, but also to hear the story of how that happens. But one of the things that I know that business owners don't do enough of, Jen, is to celebrate the successes as they're building their businesses, because we're constantly striving for next and next and next. So you've had your business now just under ten years, I think, if I remember correctly.
00:20:16
What have you marked as the milestones along the way and how do you celebrate those milestones and achieving the goals that you set yourself?
00:20:27
Well, I treat myself to very expensive conferences. I think, like when I started my Never, I thought I could never afford to go to Was. I met up with some of the women who were from business chicks who were going on the very first Necker Island conference, and I thought, wow, that would be amazing. But I don't really want to have to sell an organ, so I just put that in the one day if I can afford it basket. And so to be able to go last year, was it a stupid amount of money?
00:20:59
Yes, it was. But was it fabulous? It was. Yes, it was. I guess what I do is I celebrate by doing things that I would rather go to a conference than go on a holiday.
00:21:13
I know that's weird, but I just love hanging around with other people who love talking about business and life, like having fun. I'm going to another conference in October in Hawaii, so that's how I celebrate. I do things like that and I just get together with my many friends who've been there along the way, and we just talk about each other's businesses and pat each other on the back. Yeah. And I know your love for conferences because I share a similar one.
00:21:49
Well, I can combine that with travel. It's the best thing ever, isn't it? Like, you and I have both done a few there and you touched on before I wrapped the episode up. You just touched so beautifully on having those connections and those friends and those business peers that can get it. And you can have those open, honest, raw, vulnerable, celebratory conversations.
00:22:11
All of the things. What has having that amount of women around you meant for you growing your business? Do you think you'd be where you are today if you hadn't built a community of like minded women around you along the way? Oh, absolutely not. Because it's actually really lonely and scary because you don't know what you're doing.
00:22:31
Particularly for me, working in very large law firms, everything was done for you. Like, you just turned up and did the work. And so starting a business, I was just really lucky that there were people I could ask, how do you start a business? And which software should I get for my accounting? And then all those other little things.
00:22:53
I need a new assistant because my assistant of six years has selfishly decided to have a baby. And I just put that out to my network and bang, I found someone perfect immediately. So it's things like that where if you can just share your pain points or say, I have no idea about this, does anyone know? And I'm in a WhatsApp group of business owners and there's 25 of us and one of them has just finished doing one of these long walks that I will never do, arapinto Trail. And we all sponsored her.
00:23:29
And today our whole WhatsApp group is just everyone going, Go, Cookie. Right? But it's about having that group of people there that you can celebrate with, but also saying, you know what? I'm having a really bad day. I just want someone to post a picture of a funny looking cat, you know what I mean?
00:23:49
So we share the ups and the downs without any shame, and we're completely vulnerable. And I think that's lovely because sometimes you don't want to be vulnerable with your nearest and dearest, but you can be with these other people who share this thing, which is being a business owner and all the joys and the fears that come with couldn't. Could not agree more, Jen. And I want to thank you for jumping in and being part of the Champagne Lounge community and sharing your love, your wisdom, your humor and your business knowledge with us in the community, but also here on today's podcast because I've thoroughly enjoyed having you on the show and learning about what you do. So thank you for coming on.
00:24:30
Okay. Thanks a lot, Vic. Have a great day. Thanks for listening to the Champagne Lounge podcast. If you'd love to be part of our thriving global community, head over to thechampainlounge.com to join us.
